Staff Blog
Horse-drawn-carriage protesters demonstrate through snowstorm
As today's snowstorm slowly built, about sixteen members of Pennsylvania Friends of Animals (PFA) positioned themselves on two sidewalks in Independence National Historical Park to protest the horse-drawn carriage industry. They were there by dint of a hard-won permit from the Park, which gave them access to all sidewalks on Park property but prohibited them from gathering within 20 feet of the entrance or exit to a building, or within 12 feet of a pedestrian crossway.
The main group claimed some pavement on Sixth Street between Chestnut and Market Streets, in front of a line of horse-drawn carriages waiting for passengers. A smaller group stood near -- but not too near -- the corner of Fifth and Chestnut.
"To me, it's not really a rational restriction," said Leila Fusfeld, an organizer with PFA. "We could easily be right at that corner and not in the way of any pedestrian traffic. Or we could be here, outside that [12-foot buffer zone], and we could line up and block the whole sidewalk."
Instead, the Fifth-and-Chestnut group stood back with their signs and offered pamphlets to passersby. As City Paper stood with them for about 10 minutes, two separate pedestrians stopped and showed interest in the cause.
Back at the line of horse-drawn carriages, the carriage operators were unhappy about their new company -- though most agreed that, because of the weather, PFA's presence hadn't hurt business too much.
"I don't care on a day like today," said Ron Jones, an operator at the front of the line. "If it were 55 degrees, sunny Saturday, however, I'd have a major problem," Jones added. In his view, the PFA are "completely uneducated" about the way horses who pull carriages are actually treated.
"You know how long wild horses typically live?" he asked. "Eight years. You know how long these guys will live? Thirty-five, forty years." Jones said his shift ended at 1 p.m. today, but he stayed for the 2-5 p.m. demonstration because he didn't want to let it seem like the activists had successfully intimidated anybody.
But another horse-drawn carriage operator who only wanted to be identified by her first name, Stella, said that business has been seriously down lately -- even without a small crowd of protesters alongside the carriage line. "I worked four days this week and did no rides at all," she explained. "I'm not making any money. It's time for me to find another job."
Both Stella and Jones did acknowledge the PFA activists' right to demonstrate, but didn't opine on the hurdles the PFA had to overcome to get their demonstration permit. And that battle is far from over, in the opinion of Brandon Gittelman, the chief coordinator of the PFA's anti-horse-drawn-carriage campaign.
"I think the ACLU's going to continue to push for getting the rules of the Park and its permit system permanently changed on the books," he said, standing in the group next to the carriages, blowing on his fingers as snow began to swirl. "And just the simple fact that we had to apply for a permit -- I think that's something they're going to continue to pursue."
Sounds like horse carriage driver Jones is the one who needs educating. Note to Mr. Jones: horses in the wild graze all day and most of the night. As social animals, they will form bonds with other horses. As prey animals, they startle fairly easily and often respond by attempting to flee - a common cause of the many horse-carriage/vehicle collisions that occur every year.
All of these natural instincts are stifled in a horse used for carriage rides, forced to endure day after day on busy city streets, in all kinds of weather. But as expressed by horse carriage driver Stella, it’s all about getting paying customers. If these drivers and companies truly cared about horses, they would stop using them to make money this despicable way. This “tradition” is one that is long overdue to end. Let’s make Philadelphia truly a progressive city and outlaw horse-drawn carriages as many other world-class cities like London, Toronto, Paris, and Beijing already have.
p.s. - as far as carriage horses outliving wild horses; not sure where Mr. Jones is getting his information (probably from an owner of a carriage-horse company) but one of the few studies done on carriage horses shows that they have about half the lifespan of a police working horse, a more relevant comparison.
The weather conditions these protesters were put in is only a slice of what these horses have to deal with on a daily basis - through excessive heat, cold, snow/ice. If Ron Jones thinks this is acceptable, then he has a serious character flaw.
We may not know how the animals are treated off the road - but we see how they are treated in public. Horse-drawn carriages need to be banned. Period. The novelty and necessity have long worn off and those who still flock for a chance to hitch a ride need to know what they are contributing to.
Anai Rhoads, Friends of Animals
Well done, Pennsylvania Friends of Animals. It is inspiring to know that someone is out there advocating for these horses and educating tourists.
Time to ban horse-drawn carriages.
It’s been a very successful “Horses Without Carriages International” weekend.
If Philadelphia wants to shine as a truly progressive city, it must ban this outdated and appalling form of tourism. To have oneself carted around the city streets in all kinds of weather by worn-out horses who have no life but that allowed them by those who dominate their every moment is unconscionable.
There may have been a time in our nation’s history when horses were a necessity if one (the human rider, not the horse) were to live in comparative comfort, but those days have long since vanished, at least in what are considered progressive societies.
So it is not a question of “if” these horse-drawn carriages will be banned in the City of Philadelphia, but “when.” And I believe the time is fast approaching when those who care about the welfare of all beings can at last breathe a sign of relief at its demise.
Certain conditions in city centers cannot be corrected in a way that would make the operation of horse-drawn carriages humane and safe. Those conditions include depriving the horses of a pasture where they can roam freely and interact with other horses; forcing these nervous, prey animals to work in chaotic cities centers where stimuli spook them; subjecting them to live a “nose-to-tailpipe” existence which causes respiratory disease and forcing them to work on hard pavement which causes concussive leg injury and lameness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31GgmMsFzOM
Any animal rights group that promoptes the welfare of animals, an end to any form of abuse, is genius in my estimation. Donny Moss, that’s a great & informative post! Thanks! Thanks to all of you out there who care…
Any animal rights group that promotes the welfare of animals, an end to any form of abuse, is genius in my estimation. Donny Moss, that’s a great & informative post! Thanks! Thanks to all of you out there who care…
I think it’s very important to stop any kind of animal abuse and efforts like that are amazing! It’s more than time to give animals the respect they deserve as living creatures they are. Way to go!
Animals should be considered as partners to people. When people do not respect animals that is like breaking their friends heart. Lets love them and let them be!
Horses have been used as work animals for quite a while. I see the problem with concrete on their hooves and legs but their bodies are accustomed to weather changes, are accustomed to working and honestly in this sprawling urban world where the hell are these “open pastures” that horses can roam freely in? It’s right that we live together with horses, but in that respect we have the dominant advantage and there is nothing wrong in utilizing that advantage, provided that there is no intentional abuse to the animal. All of the animal lovers out there I’d ask you to live in the world without the comforts that you moan about all the time. Less pollution? get off the computer, stop watching television, don’t use ANYTHING motorized or that runs off of electricity. Eco-friendly forms of energy production just aren’t as widespread enough for the amount of energy that we consume. As to animals, well I guess you’ll be tilling your own soil, hoping that all of the vegetation you grow never has a bad season, pests won’t destroy your crops and oh yeah the animals you love so much DON’T EAT YOU! I love animals and I think we need to respect them but abandoning all methods of exploiting animals is just plain silly. This is one method which is quite appealing and fun just as long as the animal isn’t being intentionally abused.
Right on, Jim! As long as it’s not intentional abuse, it doesn’t count, and as long as we get some enjoyment out of it, who cares about the animal’s perspective? Do you treat your fellow humans that way…? OH yeah, you claim humans have the “dominant advantage,” as if that makes it right.
So…if another being landed on earth with a “dominant advantage” over humans, I guess than it would be all right to saddle you up, stand you on the corner, and use you however they felt fit?
Stop exploiting horses, no matter how much fun you think it is. How absolutely ridiculous. This industry has got to go. Liberate the horses, they belong in pastures, not strapped to carriages. Humans are so self-centered.
I’m glad someone is speaking up for the horses. It’s about time this practice is stopped for good.
Humans aren’t the only species on Earth, they just act like they are. BAN the horse drawn carriages!
How many of those condoning this witch hunt are horsemen? How many have owned horses, ridden horses, kept horses (ie fed and sheltered them)? Until you have this rich experience and knowledge, you have no place to speak up about riding or carriage horses working unless there is blatant and obvious abuse. Even then, what looks like abuse to you may not be abuse at all - it’s a matter of the ignorant not understanding what they see in many cases.
But I’ll grant you not always. Some things, like the air pollution for example, are just wrong and carriages that are well run should move to outlying parks and areas where this is not a problem. It’s only right…. but well done, it’s not wrong to have horses driving carriages.
I’m the first one to be a bleeding heart for animals of all stripes. Cannot tolerate humans not caring properly for them or not loving them enough to be gentle and kind. Sadly not everyone in this world is gentle and kind and some are not well educated on the very intricate details of horsemanship and horsekeeping. Any combination of that can make an ugly picture. But that would be and is true of every human-animal contact…
As a horseman, I can say horses enjoy partnering with humans, relish the connection and the caring relationship, most of them love to work (riding or pulling carriage) just like most people enjoy some exercise. I can also say I am embarrassed at times of how terribly poorly kept SOME BAD HORSEMEN keep their horses. I have seen underfed horses, horses that were too old, lame horses being used when they should not be used. I have seen stupid tack and equipment choices that are not optimal or are downright mean for the horse and really should not be used by a thinking feeling caring horseman.
See the problem is that the joy of the connection, in the proper context of healthy animal and knowledgable, kind human, the relationship between horse and rider/horse and driver, is NOT something that can be equaled in any other way. When it’s right, it’s something that is truly a thing of beauty, love, respect and partnership. But only when the RIGHT caring horseman works with his horse. I agree not all horsemen are, but you can’t paint all horsemen with one broad brush and claim they are all bad. You wouldn’t want that done to you in any of your various roles, values, activities in life, so it’s not right to do it to others.
I agree some oversight by the Humane Association or law enforcement (especially when they have their own equine division) needs to be done. But trying to run all of these folks out of town is just wrong. It’s like the lynchings - mob mentality by people who really do not understand what they are doing.
Just my 2 cents….
I am gon to have to agree with Anai Rhoads about the weather. I have yet to see and article about horse drawn carriages that has a title basedon the hgorrible weather conditions tese creatures are orced to work under.
“I don’t care on a day like today,” said Ron Jones, an operator at the front of the line. “If it were 55 degrees, sunny Saturday, however, I’d have a major problem,” Jones added. In his view, the PFA are “completely uneducated” about the way horses who pull carriages are actually treated.
Ihink the horse drawn carriage drivrs are the ones who are educated. I mean, Jone’s even admits that he kept his horse out 4 hours past his shift. How educated is that? Being forced to stand attached to a carriage without freedom of movement for 4 extra hours seems like torture to me. So how long was the horse on the street working? Concrete roads are terrible on the hooves and legs of horses. Even when we humans stand on concrete for hours on end wihout movement, out backs and legs and feet will hurt,, this is why many cashiers have padding under their work stations. I have never seen a carriage horse given any minor comfort.
lee - do you support a ban on horse-drawn carriages in Philadelphia or not? You seem to want to have it both ways by claiming that the carriages should move to “an outlying park or area where (pollution) is not a problem” - where in Philadelphia would that be?
Most of the horsemen (and women) I know agree that life as a carriage horse sucks. I pity the animals in your care if you truly think there is a good way to do it.
I love and admire horses. I owned & rode horses for many years but I would never have subjected them to the life of a carriage horse in the middle of a city. There is nothing right about this trade regardless of how the horses are cared for - which is almost universally badly. Bad legs, respiratory problems, long hours, heavy loads, fly infested barns - tourists don’t know or don’t care about these things when they pile on. We have a carriage trade here in Montreal that many are doing their vert best to abolish.
Anne Streeter
Montreal, QC.
Why are my comments being flagged as spam?
There is nothing in life with no risk, & certainly not in human/horse activities. Many, many more horses are injured or killed in eventing, jumping, racing, polo, etc. The humaniacs would eradicate ALL horses in order to eradicate all risk - somethin they could live with, and indeed, it’s something that many of them actively seek.
Anybody hell-bent on putting carriages out of business should hop on down to the auction & buy a slaughter-bound horse and care for it for the rest of its natural life. That would actually be doing something to help the horses, not hurt them.
The epidemic of abandoned horses across the country is due to what is being called a “perfect storm” of a slow economy, highfeed prices, &recent national outlawing of slaughterhouses. This is a mammoth crisis - 1000s of horses being left to waste away in backyards, fields & paddocks, or surrendered to over-crowded rescues. Closing down a business where horses lead content & exceedingly reasonable existences will only ADD to this problem.
A well-loved, cared-for horse with a job is a lucky horse.
PS - 16 people at the protest? Why is this even news?
To Anne Streeter in Canada - and any other horse owner who thinks they are safe from the humaniac agenda: BEWARE.
Unfortunately for us and our horses here in the urban carriage industry, we are one of the humaniacsďż˝ primo targets, as we fit the bill perfectly: a small, high-profile industry with very limited resources. You can see what an excellent opportunity our industry not only for misguided people, but for targeted fundraising by both small local AR groups and large AR groups like PETA.
Many of the AR people would rather see a horse dead than have a job. To them, a carriage horse doing what it was bred to do, and living a comfortable, content existence alongside his driver, is no different from Michael Vick and a pile of mutilated fighting dogs or undercover horror videos revealing grotesque cruelties at factory farms.
Indeed, humaniacs have made public statements comparing the carriage horse trade to the enslavement of people of African descent, and the Holocaust of the Jewish people during WWII.
Can any of you imagine what it is like for someone like me - a lifelong horse person, dedicated to my horses in every way - to be maligned and vilified like this? Even if you are only a pet owner - imagine someone constantly lying and distorting how you treat your pet, and then going public with it.
There are no horse-torturing monsters in our business, no matter what any of them say.
And while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they are not entitled to their own facts.
How does this affect you, the casual horse owner? Do a little research - at the core of this “movement” is the total abolishment of human/horse activity. You may be further down on their list - but you are there nonetheless.
It’s a slippery slope once you start telling other conscientious horse owners what they can and cannot do with their horses.
It will come back to bite you.
My blog:
http://thewhiffletreenyc.blogspot.com/
Myself, I could never, ever in my lifetime harm any
animal, simply because I love the Good Creator and
what gave to this planet. PLEASE PUT A STOP TO USING
HORSES - THEY, TOO, AND ALL OTHER ANIMALS HAVE A
RIGHT TO LIVE THEIR LIVES. HUMANS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE
MORE INTELLIGENT; THEREFORE, I BELIVE WE ARE HERE TO
HELP ANIMALS WHEN THEY NEED, IN TURN, QUITE WILLINGLY,
THEY GIVE US EVERLASTING LOVE. IF WE ASK KINDLY OF
THEIR HELP, THEY CERTAINLY WILL. THINK ABOUT IT AND
MAYBE YOUR HEALTH AND HAPPINESS WILL BECOME BETTER.
Believe me, please, that love conquers all. I have
been caring for some animals for some fifteen years
now and I have not been sick - I do ask the Good
Creator if he could keep up some strength so as I can
continue to care for them, and seemingly it has been
so. Never be afraid to tell an animal abuser that if
he/she/they changed their attitude towards animals
that their life will be healthier and happier -
providing, of course, he/she/they are truly sincere.
I’m all for having inspectors check the conditions of the animals and check the air quality they are subjected too, but I fear the cause is going to be hurt by some of these people. No horse professional is going to take up the cause of people who want to set the horses free in some abandoned field, because horses are domesticated animals that would die pretty quickly under those conditions. Aside from wild stallions, nearly all the horses in the United States are born and raised in captivity, meaning they’re bodies are breed to do pulling work or riding for their exercise, and they are used to changes in temperature, regular feeding schedules, and stable environments. Setting a work horse loose in the wild is like putting your cat out on the street because lions aren’t caged: your cat is not a lion and it’s going to die. I have great concern for the conditions of the carriage horses, but instead of standing on a corner with signs and spouting this crap off, maybe this group could do some research and a list of valid, researched condition complaints together to present to Animal Control. You know, do something useful.
Jessica, no one is advocating turning the horses loose in the wilderness. Certainly not in NYC, where Council Member Tony Avella’s proposed legislation leaves no stone unturned with regard to the humane disposition of these animals. The addendum to his bill in fact closes the horrendous loophole that currently exists, leaving these horses vulnerable to sale at auction houses and grisly slaughter. Most people, including “horse people,” are unaware of this and other realities of the industry. We are no naive as you seem to think. In fact, take a look at YouTube and see how the horses at one New York City stable, West Side Livery, live. Probably not as you imagine. Just search for Animals’ Angels and WSL on the channel BanHDCarriages and see for yourself. Also see a vet’s concerns about the situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjV5TACuRLA
Clarification–On YouTube, a search with the keywords “west side livery animals angels” will bring up some interesting videos showing interior from West Side Livery, a Manhattan stable that houses carriage horses. (I can’t post the URL here; spam filter).
Zizi - no sane person is advocating that, but are you reading these comments? Are you talking to the people who are protesting this? I’m not saying you’re not right. I think you are. I too am interested in the conditions of these horses. But just like the fois gras people or the horrendous crap coming from PETA, much of this rhetoric is coming from places of misunderstanding, places that turn people off or make them dismissive. If you want to help Philadelphia’s horses, come up with a list of the various violations, demand animal control test the air quality in Old City, and compare average winter and summer temperatures over a period of five years with the temperature recommendations that a work horse should be subjected to. Then present your argument. Don’t let a bunch of uneducated morons hijack what is a needy cause, and thus let the people who can actually accomplish something, you necessary allies, write you off.
Jessica, I live in NYC and haven’t been often to Philadelphia. Therefore, I can’t comment personally on the stables, the drivers, the laws, etc., because I don’t know them. However, I unequivocally support a ban in Philadelphia. Although not every individual has the same understanding of whether or not it is inherently inhumane to have horses pulling carriages, there is a common denominator that prudent people can agree upon, if they are being honest with themselves. That is, slow-moving conveyances such as horse-drawn carriages are dangerous and horses do not belong in traffic. That is reason enough to push for a ban, apart from humane issues, allegations of mistreatment, etc.
In Bucks County, Pa., I believe, a horse spooked over the weekend, crashing into cars and reportedly injuring the carriage driver. That is a predictable response, when a horse is plopped into traffic and chaotic situations (ie, fireworks, flashing lights, parades, music, large and noisy crowds, etc)! This propensity to spook is problem No. 1. Secondly, carriage horses generally are viewed by industry as mere tools or commodities that are valued only in terms of their ability to make money. It brings to mind a quote from years ago, as published in the New York Times and attributed to a then-stable manager: (NY Times 8/10/81): “If it costs, you gotta make [money]… Right now we put horses on a scale and ask a vet, ‘What’s the bare minimum per body weight we can feed these horses?’”
I don’t need to tell you, surely a knowledgeable person, that this is not a recipe for health or well-being of a horse. It is appalling. These are just a few of the legitimate concerns that surround an outdated and inherently inhumane industry. Who needs it? It is just plain wrong.
NYC is the poster child for the disastrous consequences of year after year of “improved oversight” or “better regulation.” The state of the industry is a joke, and riddled with conflict of interest if not corruption in the agencies that are charged with oversight. It’s as bad as ever in NYC; if Consumer Affairs doesn’t even care about blatant and illegal overcharging of tourists, then how closely do you think the treatment of the horses is being scrutinized? Not very!
The ASPCA is a bloated and egotistical organization that calls for a full ban at the same time that it does “voluntary” oversight to ensure humane law enforcement. What a disgrace! It seems its whole budget must go to buying tissues to sop up the tears from the weepy Sarah McLachlen tv ads. That’s about the extent of the ASPCA’s involvement. The ASPCA’s vet has LIED flat-out, saying that WSL has roomy box stalls. Guess what? It has upper-story standing stalls that are reminiscent of veal crates. And sand buckets for fire protection.
These are a few of my thoughts about the uselessness of “reform” for the industry. The time for reform was 50 years ago. We are approaching 2010. Let freedom ring.
Michaeleen Flynn is at it again, this time threatening people with BEWARE the humaniacs … this in the Eva of her day. I am sure we are Hugely afraid and awed by her brilliance. Yuk yuk … or is it bahahahaha.
Trollster, too funny!
Too bad not ONE of the people who posted after me - including Trollster (who thinks it’s identity is unknown to me LOL) has been able to refute even ONE of my facts.
When are you guys gonna put your money where your mouth is, and adopt a slaughter-bound horse & care for it for the rest of its natural life?
::chirping crickets::
As I suspected - lonely keyboard jockeys who get together to hold signs 4 times a year. Not a horseman among you.
BAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Once the ban is in place, those who are concerned with the placement of the horses should donate to Chenoa Manor Sanctuary, one of the sanctuaries that has offered to take some of the horses after the industry is banned. There is also a private individual lined up to take some as well. Also, from what I understand, legislation that has been proposed prohibits the killing of carriage horses. Under this proposed legislation, the owners will be required to sell or donate the horses to sanctuaries or private individuals that agree to care for the horses for the remainder of their natural lives.
These horses deserve to live their live in peace. If carriage drivers truly cared for the well-being of the animals in their care, they would want them to be as comfortable as possible. But really, it’s not about whether the drivers pet their horses at night and sing them lullabies, it’s about the fact that the horses are subjected to forced labor… exploitation…. something I would protest if it was happening to ANY living being.
These protestors were not shouting anything at the carriage drivers. Unlike the drivers, they care about the horses and didn’t want to spook them, hence a peaceful protest. The drivers on the other hand continued to shout horrible, meaningless and uneducated things at protestors that said nothing back.
Misguided? Why don’t you get to know those who are protesting your industry… they have NOTHING to do with PETA. But I understand how someone who IS misguided would clump all animal lovers into one group. Most of the people protesting actually do not agree with PETA. get to know what the protestors are actually protesting… if you would take the time to even read any of the literature, you would see that they are protesting exploitation. It’s not about horse torturing monsters, it’s about EXPLOITATION. They aren’t saying that you beat your horse, they are saying you are not working towards your horses best interest.. you are working towards the best interest of your pocket. Money should not be the issue if genuine care for the animal is priority. I can bet, if your horse could talk, he wouldn’t want to be walking on hard concrete and next to loud honking horns, angry drivers, buses, bikes, and BMW’s.
Welfare doesn’t do it… we need a ban…. we need to help these poor animals out of forced labor.
Right on, Anonymous. That’s the problem: the people protesting and demanding horses not be “exploited” haven’t a CLUE about being a horseperson. They do not know how much love and work that takes, how much money it costs, how much else one must give up in life to work and live with horses. They don’t realize that all those things are given freely by a horseman because they are required to have all the benefits of the relationship with horses. They don’t have any experience or knowledge of what being connected to a horse means, what true animal-human partnership is, what kind of commitment is required to care for in sickness and in health, to make sure all needs are met from physical to emotional.
It’s so much easier to stand back, completely ignorant of how to be a competent caring horseperson, and criticize what they do not understand and demand things be changed to conform to their fantasyland fairytale dreams.
Like Anonymous, I have beloved horses I care for and sacrifice to do that care. Real sacrifice, as in hours and LOTS of money. Mine are retired - for many years now - but they are still here with me, being pampered into their golden years, no longer ridden, no longer with a job but still loved and respected. I have rescued dogs and cats and helped facilitate all kinds of other rescues and fostering. The way some respondents here write, you would think the definition of “horseman” was a demon, someone intent on torturing and abusing horses in order to make money. NOTHING could be further from the truth.
While I know there are horsemen out there who do not do an adequate job or even who are downright mean and cruel, it is NOT the place of non-horsemen to impose their judgements on the keeping of horses. These bad seeds are in the minority and are in every class, every segment, every walk of society - even in YOUR group. But without insight and knowledge, simply: the IGNORANT cannot judge what they do not know. How much more clearly can that be said?
Certainly all animal related activities need to have oversight - BY QUALIFIED EXPERIENCED OVERSEERS, NOT BY IGNORAMUSES.
If you want to be a part of making positive changes for carriage horses, or any other animals “used” by humans, take the considerable time and make the effort to educate yourself thoroughly about the subject and to experience the subject before you elevate yourself into the judge and jury position. It’s the least you can do. If you don’t think this is a forthright suggestion, ask yourself this: do you expect the judge in a court of law to NOT have any studied knowledge of the law when they will be deciding on your divorce, custody or business arrangement issues? Or do you go to your doctor without a care as to whether he’s actually a “real” doctor who has studied and practiced all the curriculum necessary to make him an expert in that field? I don’t think so - to judge one must have context, knowledge and experience. Come back and tell us what needs to be done when you have that under your belt.
You don’t need to be a doctor to know that a horse in 21st century traffic kept in filthy warehouses is inhumane. Most of these drivers can’t even read much less drive. Fuck the “I am a horseman”. YOU’re are a horse’s ASS
Anonymous, I don’t need a degree in horse care to know that sticking his nose in front of a tailpipe or a carriage drivers cigarette is unhealthy. I don’t need to have ever groomed a horse to know that sticking him in city traffic is unnatural and dangerous. Some things are just common sense. If you had a six year old child and you were having money problems, would you put them to work to help pay the bills? NO. As a parent you would find a way to care for your child in other ways. If you couldn’t care for your horse, then you shouldn’t have committed to taking care of them in the first place. Playing the martyr isn’t helpful either.
I don’t know you or what you do with your horses. I don’t judge or diminish your love of horses but I am allowed to have an opinion and a problem with the horse carriage industry. I have many close friends who take care of horses in sanctuaries who feel the same way. They’ve seen what happens to these horses when they are no longer useful to these companies… THEY take care of the result of this detrimental industry and I have seen what THEY go through. Is their opinion more valid to you because they care for these horses on a daily basis? This article is about Carriage horses in a big city. You didn’t comment on that at all and I would be interested to know your thoughts on that specifically.
I heard the horses are organizing a union so that AR groups can’t picket to take their “jobs” away.
Come on people, horses don’t want to cart you around. Drive your car, ride your bike, use your own two hooves… let the horses retire to a suitable sanctuary.
Really getting tired of the censorship on this board. WHY WERE MY COMMENTS REMOVED? How can this be a discussion when comments are removed for no reason?
RowanM:
Please rest assured that we are not censoring or removing comments. Our automated spam filter will sometimes erroneously flag a reader for submitting multiple comments within a short amount of time. Your comments have been approved.
I wonder if Philadelphia horses have it as bad as those in NYC…anyone ever take a look at the infamous WEST SIDE LIVERY? YIKES! WHAT A DUMP! 538 W. 38th Street! What is the angle of that ramp, about 80 degrees? IT’S UNBELIEVABLE!
Great job Friends of Animals. We as humans must take care of those who can not speak for themselves. This does not only include those animals we call pets. To be a completely kind person we must practice kindness across the board. The company that owns the carriage horses also runs trolly tours which I have been on with my students. Keep giving those trolly educational and humane trolly rides and show compassion by ending the use of horses.
Does anybody make regualr money from gambling? For most games the house has an edge so surely to be +ev in the long term you will have to be very lucky. What do you think?
I am a horseperson, and as usual these discussions are very frustrating. People keep making comments based on little to no knowledge of the situation. “Filthy warehouses”? Have you actually seen the barns the horses live in, or are you just assuming that’s what they must be like. I’ve been in two of the carriage stables in the city. One, though it’s had trouble in the past, was fine - clean and well ventilated - and the other was absolutely spotless, bright, with bigger stalls than a lot of expensive barns in the Chester County. That one also has nice turnouts, not huge, but as nice as the fancy park stables and similar to those you’d find at any barn on the west coast.
I’ve seen carriage horses headed off to work in the evening, pulling their drivers along, ears up and eager to be out. But then, unlike most of the protesters who have never spent time around horses, I can read their body language. I can tell “napping” from “depressed and miserable” from “sick, get vet asap”. Most carriage horses I see are content or napping. If I saw a miserable or sick one, I’d be the first to call the SPCA.
People also don’t seem to understand how light this work really is. Carriages are balanced in such a way that there is almost no effort in moving them, and only some in getting them started. A average person can easily move them around. They use horses far far stronger than the task requires - these horses were bred to plow fields and pull things like massive beer wagons. It’s like having a football player carry your first grader’s backpack. And they just walk. I realize to most modern Americans who never walk farther than their car, that sounds horribly arduous, but for the vast majority of humans and animals that’s a pretty lazy day. Between that, they stand and nap a lot. That’s what my horse does in the field.
I do worry about them in the traffic, but then I drive in center city traffic and realize they aren’t really going much slower than the cars. It’s probably different in NYC from what I’ve seen, but here the streets are narrow and blocks are short, so traffic is hardly faster than a walk anyway. It’s not like they are cruising the expressway.
Oh, and weather. Horses love the cold. They notoriously become much more energetic once it gets below 50 or so, and with their winter hair are totally happy at probably any temperature above freezing. Just because you are cold, don’t assume an animal with a completely different size, shape, and metabolism feels the same.
Anonymous (Dec. 24), the “filthy warehouse” referred to is in NYC…try West Side Livery at 538 W. 38th Street. I dare you to refute this characterization. My comments are mostly about NYC, which has a horrific carriage industry. I have substantial knowledge of which I speak.
As for horses in traffic, the last week has been a busy one for horrible crashes involving horse-drawn carriages. Two in the same week in Cincinnati, another one reported in Sacramento, and that’s not all.
There is no excuse for having a horse in traffic. Period.
You know, I actually had a chance to get a pretty good look at a lot of these horses yesterday as I did the tourist thing. The horses overall don’t look too bad (they’re not undernourished, etc), but I personally would like to see this business go bye-bye. I think the carriages are a traffic hazard, plus from an animal welfare standpoint it’s problematic for me. Breathing in car fumes, standing out on pavement radiating hit in summer, etc. It doesn’t serve any positive purpose in my mind.
Make that “standing out on pavement radiating HEAT in summer”. I must be channeling Ricky Ricardo…
You all are idiots. Carriage Horses are treated very well. How about you but away your propaganda, and be willing to sit down and have a conversation… We’re in Philly right? The former capital of the US. Where a revolution was started. Bit even Franklin tried to solve it by speaking to the king before a war was started… HAVE A CONVERSATION. Carriage drivers are people too. Remember that.